Current mood:	thoughtful
Entry tags:	meta

Meta: Feedback as currency
Feedback is often said to be the only payment a fanfiction writer receives for their craft, and I wonder sometimes if that commonly expressed adage is at the root of some of the misunderstandings which arise between readers and writers in fandom. If you classify feedback as payment then a piece of writing becomes a commodity which has a price, and the amount/quality of feedback received becomes perceived as a measure of that commodity’s worth. Yet there often seems to be a mismatch in perception between readers and writers when the phenomenon of feedback is discussed in those terms.

I’ve recently been reading a discussion on a list for a fandom I lurk in, and am seeing a reiteration of various points which have been raised numerous times in my own fandom. These are the kind of arguments that have been made on the part of readers and writers:

	READERS	WRITERS
1	State that they rarely or never send feedback	Tend to assume that lack of feedback means either no one wanted to read or no one liked their story
2	Lament the lack of recent stories they personally like, and tend to express that perception in terms of a perceived lack of quality amongst newer writers	Express demotivation at the lack of response and/or negative comments about the state of fanfic in general, and state an intention not to bother posting any more stories or to post them in alternatives venues
3	Accuse writers of ‘only writing for feedback’. The belief is expressed, often disparagingly, that this is why writers tend to post at LJ and write shorter forms such as drabbles	Express various reasons for writing (they love the source material, are compelled to write etc), and freely admit that feedback/communication with readers makes them happy and motivates them. This ultimately influences where they post their work
4	Are disdainful about solely-positive one-line feedback (such as that seen on LJ), and tend to dismiss it as personal affirmation from the author’s friends (or even alleged sockpuppets) and therefore lacking in perceived worth	Are generally receiving less feedback now than in the past, but are far more likely to receive any feedback at all if their work is posted on LJ instead of at traditional archives (where there can be little or no response from readers). The majority express gratitude for any type of feedback, including one-line thanks and concrit
5	Resent what they see as an expectation on the part of writers to only receive positive feedback. The view is strongly expressed that feedback should be a learning tool, and that writers should welcome criticism and strive to improve on the basis of it. Writing = Serious Business	A few state unashamedly that they prefer to receive only positive feedback. In rare cases, one or two choose not to post their stories online because they dislike receiving any feedback at all. The usual reason given is that they are not interested in becoming better writers but only in pursuing a hobby, so critical comments (or any comments) can be demotivating or are not of interest/use to them.

I thought it might be interesting to examine those points in the context of feedback as currency. I’m meandering around the concept here – no definitive conclusions are given, and the viewpoints discussed below are not necessarily ones I share. I'm also aware that the distinction between readers and writers is actually a lot more blurred than I've allowed for in this post - many people are both. I’m simply offering up my thinky-thoughts for discussion.


1) I received no feedback, so no one read/liked my story

If you are a writer, and you regard the amount of feedback you receive as the payment due to you in exchange for your product, then it is entirely believable that you can feel ripped off if it doesn’t ‘sell’ for what you believed it was worth.

But do readers see it in the same way? They often point to a number of reasons for not sending feedback – habit, lack of time, desire to send concrit yet concern about how well that will be received, amongst others. I know, from my own experience as a reader, during the period before I started to write stories myself, that I frequently read stories which I loved, yet for reasons rooted in my own insecurity as a (then) non-writer, I didn’t feel comfortable sending feedback.

Many of the reasons given for not sending feedback are unrelated to whether the story in question was regarded as a worthwhile or enjoyable read. And few readers ever seem to express their giving of feedback in terms of it being payment. Fanfic is freely available on the net, and anyone can read it. Why, unless they have a particular investment in doing so, should readers pay for it terms of feedback? And if stories are read via fanzines instead of on the net, the reader has already paid a monetary sum to read it, so why should they pay again by sending feedback?


2) No one liked my story, so I won’t bother posting anymore

If your product doesn’t sell in one marketplace, then it might sell in another. That makes sense – why should writers post their stories in places where no one appears to be buying? And if your potential customers are already talking about how the currently available goods are not as high in quality as they used to be, what reason do you have to stick around?

But once the writers have taken their wares off to pastures new, the readers left behind tend to feel pretty disappointed. They’ve been deprived of their easy-to-find, apparently free store of fanfic, and now have to navigate some unfamiliar new site to find it yet, as far as they were concerned, there was nothing wrong with things as they stood, so they really don’t get why writers are going elsewhere.


3) Writers are in it for the dosh feedback, and that’s it.

I’ve often jokingly said that, if my motivation for writing was to get tons of feedback, I’d have stopped writing TS stories and moved to SGA long ago *g*. Yet I stay, because my primary motivation for writing about Jim and Blair is that I love to play with those particular characters, and no other characters will do. Feedback, to me, is merely a nice bonus.

My motives for writing and posting TS stories are my own; but other writers have many and varied motivations, up to and including *gasp* enjoying getting feedback. And getting feedback, it has to be said, can be a very enjoyable experience, so why should writers feel sleazy about accepting it? What’s so bad about being rewarded – ie ‘paid’ in the currency of feedback - for your hard work?

Insisting that writers who post at LJ and/or those who write drabbles only write for feedback (and ‘feedback’ in that context means 100% ‘squee’) is tantamount to saying that they’ll churn out any old crap as long as they get paid. There’s a huge assumption there that payment is all that matters to those writers – their motivations are described in extremely black and white terms, as though ‘serious’ writing (coupled with disdain for feedback which is not detailed concrit) is at one end of the spectrum, and at the other end the writer produces low quality stories solely for reward.

The reality can actually be found on a sliding scale somewhere in-between. It is not mutually exclusive for someone to produce quality work, obtain vast pleasure out of the process of production, and both seek/enjoy feedback of any stripe.


4) Writers sell out/behave fraudulently to get more feedback

If a writer gets ten, brief, “I enjoyed that!” comments from friends the writer might indeed be pleased, but a disgruntled onlooker might see it as evidence of corrupt business practices, as though the writer is accepting a few back-handers on the sly. It can even be inferred that bribery is involved, in that the writer has somehow coerced people into commenting. Even worse are the claims of fraudulent behaviour, in the form of feedback from assumed sockpuppet identities.

These are all charges I’ve seen levelled at writers who get a lot of comments on stories posted on LJ. The writer’s product has been assessed by the reader as low in quality, so if it obviously goes for a price way beyond its perceived value – and for more than stories assessed as being of higher quality, but posted in venues where lower amounts of feedback are the norm - then the writer must be cheating or committing fraud to inflate the apparent value of their sub-standard product.


5) Critique is legitimate currency, squee is counterfeit

We’re back to the dichotomy mentioned earlier. ‘Serious’ writers are motivated by their craft, and critical feedback is currency that can be spent to improve the quality of future products. One-line squee, while nice to receive, is not regarded as ‘real’ feedback, because it has no worth beyond instant gratification.

Writers who don’t fit this model tend to be disparaged and, no matter what they do, they can’t win. Some writers dislike critique so much, they choose not to post their stories at all, or they post them in locked LJs/member-only groups, thus limiting the type of feedback they receive to squee or eliminating the possibility of it altogether. Potential readers who are denied access to that product portray it in terms of being a shady and illegitimate way to operate, and feel as though they have been turned away from some exclusive store. And yet, when it comes down to it, the store probably sells cheap tat anyway, since real money is not accepted there!



Any thoughts? Please feel free to discuss amongst yourselves. I will be busy for the rest of the day, but I will hopefully be able to spend some time tomorrow catching up with comments on this post and others.


ETA: I just found out that this post was linked in metafandom. I'm going to be out of action for a short period due to a family crisis, but all comments/discussion are welcome from anyone popping in, and I'll try to acknowledge/answer as many as I can as soon as I'm able :-)

(245 comments) - (Post a new comment)

mab_browne 2008-04-20 11:49 am UTC (link)

Much of this meta seems aimed at the bad habits and misconceptions of readers - and I'll admit that those are the things that I notice, because I write, and - gasp - I like fb. But otoh, even taking out the nonsense of 'write what I want or else you're killing the fandom' there is undoubtedly a lot of badly written dross out there. (And I read around quite a lot, so this isn't aimed at any particular fandom.) And there are writers who indulge in 'blackmail' of the 'fb me or else I'll leave you hanging' variety. And as a reader, those things make me eye-rollingly impatient. Thing is, I doubt I can do anything about them, any more than a writer can make readers respond to their stories the way they'd prefer. I don't see any answer to the points raised in ongoing debate of whether we're here for the Squee and Fun, or the Serious Writing. It's part of the usual circle game, I guess. :-) (Reply to this) (Thread)

fluterbev 2008-04-21 09:53 am UTC (link)

My bias is showing, eh? But the recent discussion I referenced focused mainly on the perceptions of readers, hence the fact those issues take precedence in this meta. But I fully admit that there might well be a bit of bias on my part too :-) I was mostly intrigued by the concept of feedback as payment, and therefore the act of reading/sending feedback as a financial transaction. I think what I've come up after reading what other people have said here is that it's not a model that really works, for a number of reasons that have been pointed out. Hence, perhaps, the mismatch between readers/writers when feedback is conceptualised as 'the only payment a fanfiction writer gets'. If a writer sees it as payment, and fails to say thanks for it because the transaction, as far as they are concerned, is complete, then the disgruntled reader is likely to feel pissed off because they very often expect some acknowledgment. There is then a a rift between writer and reader (who concetualise the situation differently), which causes bad feeling and, perhaps, a disinclination to send fb in future. Rambling, here. I think I need coffee... ;-) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - mab_browne, 2008-04-21 09:07 pm UTC (Expand)

tesserae_ 2008-04-20 02:25 pm UTC (link)

I’d have stopped writing TS stories and moved to SGA long ago *g*. At which point you'd find everybody going round in circles over complaints that the only SGA writers who get any fb are the ones writing explicit Sheppard/McKay and everyone else is sadly neglected...fandom will never settle this argument. But hey, if you ever feel the need to write wingfic or penguins or kitties, or aliens made them do it, we are here for you. As a reader, I try to leave fb on most of the stories I read - I don't finish the ones I don't like and I would never leave negative fb in a puublic forum. When I do fb, sometimes it's just a quick "Loved this!", sometiimes I'll be more specific. For me it's not an "economic" thing but rather a community thing, doing what I can to keep the wheels turning, so to speak. As a writer, fb makes me incredibly happy whether it's a couple of words or something more substantial. I figure anything that doesn't get much fb is either not widely read or not widely liked, which - well, it would be lovely to get 4 pages of comments, but I don't write those stories. It would be discouraging to get *no* feedback, you're right. But at that point I think I'd try to get a read on the situation from a couple of other writers or from someone who does a recs page and try to figure out why. Unless it really *is* a purely-personal hobby, in which case, why post? Where the economic argument really breaks down for me is when people say writers don't have to bother with thanking the people who leave fb. In an economic sense, sure: the product is paid for, end of transaction. Except all the retailers I know make an effort to show their customers their appreciation... It may feel silly to write a buch of comments saying "Thanks!" but the people who get those emails like them, I'm positive. After all, if you're looking at the whole thing from a social/community perspective, it's only gracious to say thank you. (Reply to this) (Thread)

fluterbev 2008-04-21 09:59 am UTC (link)

But hey, if you ever feel the need to write wingfic or penguins or kitties, or aliens made them do it, we are here for you. I suspect the men in white coats will be here for me as well.... LOL Where the economic argument really breaks down for me is when people say writers don't have to bother with thanking the people who leave fb. In an economic sense, sure: the product is paid for, end of transaction. Except all the retailers I know make an effort to show their customers their appreciation... It may feel silly to write a buch of comments saying "Thanks!" but the people who get those emails like them, I'm positive. After all, if you're looking at the whole thing from a social/community perspective, it's only gracious to say thank you. Yeah, you're absolutely right about this. And that, for me, illustrates why describing feedback as payment doesn't work. As I said above to Mab, If a writer sees it as payment, and fails to say thanks for it because the transaction, as far as they are concerned, is complete, then the disgruntled reader is likely to feel pissed off because they very often expect some acknowledgment. There is then a a rift between writer and reader (who conceptualise the situation differently), which causes bad feeling and, perhaps, a disinclination to send fb in future. (Reply to this) (Parent)

I have always atempted to give feedback wolfdancer 2008-04-20 03:53 pm UTC (link)

even if it was just a Thank you.. I liked it, and what I liked about it. If I did not Love it, I still sent feedback, with thanks, but did not rip the person a new one. There not getting paid, no one is forcing me to read there work, and if on line i did not pay for it. Some times I give Massage if posable for thanks to my fav when ever posable. Peter S Beagle loves me.. snicker. Legon Rocks. I wish I could rub the feet of ever Fan fic person that O have ever read and loved. But the best thing that I think that you can tell about a story is how it made you feel, as that is what the story is about. evocking feelings. Did I cry? Laugh? Feel sad, happy? Hot? Want to comfort the poor soul that was beiing kidnaped and .. well you get the point. DS is one of my fav fandoms. If is selldom that I see anything new, and I found something that was less than a year old. I sent a LOC that turned out to be almost as long as the story. The letter I got back was incredable. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: I have always atempted to give feedback fluterbev 2008-04-21 10:01 am UTC (link)
	You can rub my feet any day of the week! LOL I do love to get feedback, because it is both gratifying and interesting to know what people think of what I'm putting out there. Sometimes it influences how/what I write, sometimes it doesn't, and that's fine. Sometimes it just makes me feel happy, which is a good thing in itself :-) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: I have always atempted to give feedback - rainbowchicken, 2008-04-24 01:41 am UTC (Expand)

lit_gal 2008-04-20 04:25 pm UTC (link)

See, for me, feedback is something completely different. Feedback truly feeds the muse in my case. I get an idea, and I put the first few chapters out there, and then the feedback truly helps me refine the idea. If people don't understand a characters motivation, then I add a chapter where someone demands to know what that character is thinking. If someone doesn't understand the logic, then I clarify in the next chapter. If someone really loves x, y, or z, then I build in more x, y or z. To me, writing should be a shared process where the words are built between the writer and the reader. I think Control Issues is my strongest example of that. Feedback comments inspired probably a good 30 to 40% of that story. Now, does that mean that I won't write if I don't get feedback? Absolutely not. Recovery Epic was a record breaker for lack of feedback. The only chapter that got a lot of feedback was one where people thought I had "missed" the characterization of Blair. I loved that feedback because it helped me develop my ideas a little more. However, lack of feedback makes it harder for me to write because I don't get a strong sense of how the piece is coming across to the reader. And having all positive one-liners makes it just as difficult. I get excited as a writer when I know how my story is coming across to the audience, so I want feedback that will feed the muse and get her excited about reaching the audience. (Reply to this) (Thread)

fluterbev 2008-04-21 10:07 am UTC (link)

As someone who has habitually written serialised WIPs, I totally get what you're saying here. I can think of two or three of my own stories, off the top of my head, which were hugely influenced by reader comments as I wrote them and posted them in my journal. I once described it as 'writing by committee' *g*. It's a really nice, intense method of creation and communication. As regards negative feedback, I've had a fair bit in my time too, and sometimes it influences the way I write, and sometimes it doesn't. I do find it really interesting, though, to find out what parts didn't work for people and why. Edited at 2008-04-21 10:07 am UTC (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Wordy McWord. - gillyp, 2008-04-21 10:33 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - laura_holt_pi, 2008-04-21 08:31 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - fluterbev, 2008-04-23 08:58 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - xie_xie_xie, 2008-04-22 03:26 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - fluterbev, 2008-04-23 09:05 am UTC (Expand)

starwatcher307 2008-04-20 04:34 pm UTC (link)

. Hey, Bev, sorry for the deleted comment. I was writing outside LJ, and didn't realize I had only grabbed part of it when I pasted. Delete, try again... but the whole thing was too long. So I turned it into a post, here. But, for commenting here, I guess this is the most relevant part... As Bev said, ...my primary motivation for writing about Jim and Blair is that I love to play with those particular characters, and no other characters will do. Exactly! I don't understand why that part of the equation is so consistently overlooked. Some people stay with one-true-love through many years, some have sequences of true-loves as they move through different fandoms, and some people are capable of loving several pairs or groups of characters in several different fandoms at the same time. But the common denominator is "love"; only a masochist would spend time and effort writing about characters she hates. Most authors enjoy getting feedback -- positive strokes are always nice -- but feedback would not be enough of a motivator to spend time with characters they don't love. So why isn't the love recognized? Feedback is nice, whether squee-ful or concrit, but you can't take it to the bank. Some of us (many of us?) work in jobs we don't particularly like, because we need the money. Fanfic falls outside that driving necessity. Those who suggest that authors write "for" feedback are, I think, being deliberately obtuse. But I suppose it's a human trait -- we all have opinions, but "my" opinion is closer to reality than "your" opinion, and therefore, it's the "right" way of looking at the question. I mean, this whole comment (which grew into a post), is an example of that. <g> It becomes an exercise in discussion, because neither side will change the opinions of the other. There may be a few individuals here and there who think, "Yeah, those are good points; I'm convinced. I'll be arguing on thatside from now on," but I think they're rare. If you (general) are open enough to see another's POV, you wouldn't be taking a hard line anyway, whichever side of the "line" you fall on. So round and round and round we go. Might as well put on your "study the natives" hat, grab some popcorn, and enjoy the show. It's fun to discuss and poke at once in a while, but don't let it raise your blood pressure. . (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

fluterbev 2008-04-21 10:19 am UTC (link)

I think when people really disapprove of something, they often come across as wilfully blind to the positives of it. People who are LJ-phobic/resentful that their fandom has gone elsewhere are more likely to assume nefarious motives than good ones - the writers over there are bad writers, attention seekers, cliquish, selfish, and ultimately not like us. They usually ignore the fact that the same people are having fun, with source material that they love, in the company of like-minded people and in a very sociable medium. And *gasp* some of them are even producing half-decent fics! As for my blood pressure, it is totally fine, thanks very much. Five years ago, I found this kind of thing astonishing. Now I tend to find it an interesting social phenomenon which I can step back from and theorise about, then make posts like this! :-) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - starwatcher307, 2008-04-22 02:43 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - dinpik, 2008-04-21 08:03 pm UTC (Expand)

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(no subject) - mwrgana, 2008-04-25 02:16 pm UTC (Expand)

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(no subject) - kimonkey7, 2008-04-22 03:08 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - earth2skye, 2008-04-22 08:11 am UTC (Expand)

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(no subject) - kimonkey7, 2008-04-22 11:34 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - earth2skye, 2008-04-22 01:16 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - fluterbev, 2008-04-23 09:12 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - dinpik, 2008-04-21 10:13 pm UTC (Expand)

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(no subject) - starwatcher307, 2008-04-22 02:49 am UTC (Expand)

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(no subject) - karieflybabe, 2008-04-22 11:16 am UTC (Expand)

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karieflybabe 2008-04-20 04:35 pm UTC (link)

I used to write for enjoyment between me and one oher person, because we were both trying to figure out what worked and what didn't... and why. Then I grew up a little. I tried to write for fdk, but it was so hit or miss. Stuff that I now consider bad I got countless fangirl squee type fdk. But there was no one saying if I was doing anything wrong... Then I wrote and posted a story, and got a nice letter in review... which told me I was missing a mark. Ut Oh... So I tried to de-construct my thinking, went to a WIP journal and started asking other writers what I was screwing up on... Oh My! Finally I figured out more, and started writing. And the plots began to overwhelm me. Now I can't stop writing. I love to get any fdk, even the 'I liked it!' or 'Thank you for sharing!' cause it shows me that my work is being SEEN. (I believe I mentioned this before and starwatcher suggested a hit counter for the journal... still haven't found one that works for Insane Journal.) I also try, really I do, try to at least let other writers know that I have read their work. Mostly on long work, I seldom leave word on drabbles. I do not post to LJ to be exclusive. I started on LJ cause I was following a fandom and I couldn't get into the lists... And I liked to be able to talk about everything, not just stories. Does that about cover it? (Reply to this) (Thread)

fluterbev 2008-04-21 10:26 am UTC (link)

Feedback can be a great thing, for many reasons, most of which you mention :-). It's weird, especially in this fandom, when the 'writing for feedback' accusation gets made, because I'm certain that the majority of writers tend to have far more complex motives than that. I'd love to see an actual example of someone who really writes solely for feedback, rather than the constant anecdotal ones. And you know, if getting feedback is what floats some writer's boat, what's so wrong with it? If readers don't want to send any, they won't. Lots of readers don't even send FB for stories they liked! (Reply to this) (Parent)

uniquewonders 2008-04-20 05:07 pm UTC (link)

*nods* A newsletter's recently linked me to a story where the author said (I'm paraphrasing) "Comments are what keeps me writing. If you like the fic and want more, leave a comment, ok?". In capslock. In some odd, twisted way, I felt I was only allowed to enjoy - or even read - the fic if I left a comment afterwards. I simply closed the tab and didn't read the story. I knew turning reading into some kind of transaction whose terms I wasn't supposed to have any say about would prevent me from enjoying the story. (Reply to this) (Thread)

fluterbev 2008-04-21 10:32 am UTC (link)

Comments are what keeps me writing Yep, that does sound like a transactional thing. Personally I think comments might keep me posting, but my own personal motives (love of the source material, love of the process of writing, a desperate need to get this scenario out of my head and onto paper right now before I go bonkers *g*) are what keep me writing. Sharing it with others is only part of the picture, and I suspect that is true of many people who write; even, perhaps, that particular author, who surely must have motives other than getting comments? Maybe not, I don't know... (Reply to this) (Parent)

briarwood 2008-04-20 05:54 pm UTC (link)

Truth is I don't read a lot of fic. I don't read most of what goes through my friends list, even. So if I don't comment (at least for someone I have friended) it most likely means I didn't read it. Or, with multi-chaptered fics, I tend to hold of on commenting until the end. I know. I hate it when folks do that to me, but for me a journey is all about the destination. I don't have anything useful to say until I know where it's going to end. On my own website, I can glance over the server logs and see what kind of traffic my stories are getting. But on LJ, there isn't really a good way to do that. I just started using LJToys, and that works, and there are free hit counters and so on, but there's nothing integrated into LJ that lets you see whether your stuff is being read. Comments are the only way I know if anyone's reading. If fandom is a gift economy...well, ain't it polite to say thanks for a gift? Especially if you liked it? Simple courtesy, I would have thought. Equating that with payment kinda misses the point that it's a gift. This mega-long story I'm writing now: I have to finish it before I can post, because if I started posting it as a WIP and got no comments at all, I just know I'd start wondering why, I'd start doubting myself and I might not get to the end. I got zero comments on Shelter. Zero. So when I hit a problem with the story instead of working through it I found myself asking why I was bothering. Clearly, no one was reading it, so no one would care if it's never finished. No reader is obliged to leave concrit. I love concrit. I love plain ol' praise. But all I really want to know is that I'm not wasting my time posting. (Continued...) (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

briarwood 2008-04-20 06:04 pm UTC (link)

Insisting that writers who post at LJ and/or those who write drabbles only write for feedback (and ‘feedback’ in that context means 100% ‘squee’) is tantamount to saying that they’ll churn out any old crap as long as they get paid. You know, I don't feel that way about writers on LJ because I know commenting is part of the culture here. On the other hand, back when I was in Stargate fandom, which was 80% on lists, there were a couple of infamous writers who I can't believe were writing for any other reason. They certainly can't possibly have thought their stuff was any good, or remotely in character. Yet they had their little cliques of friends who would gush and gush on-list about how amazing the latest weepy-Daniel-marries-neanderthal-jack-in-the-gateroom was...while the rest of us rolled our virtual eyes and praised the restraint of the list owner who didn't ban them. And when someone dared to point out that there's a little thing called realism and maybe General Hammond couldn't actually marry them 'cause let-me-count-the-reasons they were being cruel and heartless and flaming the poor clueless genius who wrote it again and again. I don't know how well that ties in, or even if it does. I guess I'm just saying that there are always exceptions. Me? I just like to know someone's reading what I put out there. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - feklar, 2008-04-20 11:07 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - briarwood, 2008-04-21 10:07 am UTC (Expand)

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(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-04-20 07:52 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - karieflybabe, 2008-04-20 07:58 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - mab_browne, 2008-04-20 08:16 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - briarwood, 2008-04-20 08:18 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - fluterbev, 2008-04-20 08:45 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - starwatcher307, 2008-04-21 12:24 am UTC (Expand)

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(no subject) - fluterbev, 2008-04-23 09:21 am UTC (Expand)

bumpkin_is 2008-04-20 06:01 pm UTC (link)

I think the biggest thing is you have to decide as a writer is why you write. What motivates you to put your pen to paper, or fingers to keys nowadays for the majority of us. Me, well I write because the ideas won't leave me alone. Most of the time I can get the story outlined and then leave it (my prose skills aren't the best), but every so often actual living and breathing scenes will flow from me and an actual story will be born. Now I will admit that doesn't mean the story is written fast, and generally not in a linear fashion (heh, half the time I have the basic version of the ending written first, I am an oddball), but it does mean that I rarely post an in progress fic. So getting FDK during the writing process isn't something I have ever really worked with, or had to worry about. *g* But I can certainly see how it would be helpful to others who do write that way. I've never really been one who expected FDK - I've always written something, went hunh, wouldja lookit that, posted it cause it's not going to do me any good just cluttering up my HD so I might as well share - but when I have gotten it, walking on air is a good way to put it. And admittedly, lots of times after getting some great FDK I will go on a writing binge because of the high from it. But I have never expected it. Personally if I were to classify FDK as anything it would be as a food or drug for the 'muse' in all of us. (There is a really funny fic that actually did compare it to that a while back written by a lady named Hazel - I'll see if I can find it if ppl are interested) It isn't needed for the writing per se, and isn't the 'coin' we are paid in, but it sure greases the wheels. Just my thoughts.. Marns ~pN (Reply to this) (Thread)

fluterbev 2008-04-23 09:27 am UTC (link)

Yep, I agree with a lot of what you say here. There's no doubt that affirmation of any kind when you've worked hard on an endeavor can be motivating - it's human nature. I don't get why there is pressure on writers not to ever say they love feedback - it makes no sense to me. Of course it is nice when people tell you that you communicated your ideas in such a way that they got something out of it! And feedback is often used in those kind of declarations as a word sysnonymous with 'squee', when in fact feedback can take the form of squee, conveyance of dislike and every shade in-between. It's not all about ego-stroking; it's about far more things than that (though it's nice to have yur ego stroked once in a while too! *g*) (Reply to this) (Parent)

feklar 2008-04-20 06:01 pm UTC (link)

Ironically, although these arguments existed in fic email-lists, I suspect overall there was a lot more (and a lot more substantive) fb on lists than LJ. There are a lot of things I don't like about LJ, but one of the biggest is that it rarely produces conversations. It mostly produces dialogs and those get boring, are mostly full of one- or two-liners, and peter out pretty fast. This makes the fb process much less interesting and involving. I almost never fb on lj, in part b/c I've often just followed a link and the story is old and has pages of comments, most of which are just one-liners. On a list, the story was 'hot off the presses,' so I knew my fb was actually relevant and current. I was more invested in encouraging the writer to continue or write more, b/c it was a current story and the writer was still writing, in the fandom, etc. (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

karieflybabe 2008-04-20 07:05 pm UTC (link)

Wait a minute, there's trouble here... There are a lot of things I don't like about LJ, but one of the biggest is that it rarely produces conversations. Lemme remedy that situation for you... this is conversation... You respond with comment, I respond back... I almost never fb on lj, in part b/c I've often just followed a link and the story is old and has pages of comments, most of which are just one-liners. Two things here. #1: It can still benefit the author of these 'older' stories to receive even so much as one line of comment. "I liked this, thank you for sharing." is always welcome. I mean, think about it. Don't you think even the well known authors like getting their ego stroked once in a while? Can you imagine Stephen King getting a comment like "OMG, I just read The Shining for the first time and I loved it!", you think he's going to say something like "Where the hell have you been? That is SO old!" No, I think it would be more something like, "That old thing, wow - good to know that it's still making ppl happy." #2: One liners, they are okay,really, we just like to know that you liked it or not... so what's wrong with one liners again? On a list, the story was 'hot off the presses,' so I knew my fb was actually relevant and current. I am not on a list, yet I am churning out stories as often as I can. I post them to my Insane Journal, then I come here to Live Journal and I announce them in three different communities. If I had access to other venues, and I felt the stories would be readily accepted, I would go there. But as I said, I am not on lists... does that mean I am not current and "hot off the presses"? KarieAuthoress (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - feklar, 2008-04-20 10:38 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - feklar, 2008-04-20 10:39 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - karieflybabe, 2008-04-20 11:03 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - feklar, 2008-04-20 11:16 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - karieflybabe, 2008-04-20 11:23 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - thelana, 2008-04-21 08:43 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - fluterbev, 2008-04-21 11:03 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - thelana, 2008-04-21 11:11 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - feklar, 2008-04-21 03:11 pm UTC (Expand)

I suspect overall there was a lot more (and a lot more substantive) fb on lists than LJ. - gillyp, 2008-04-21 09:01 am UTC (Expand)

Re: I suspect overall there was a lot more (and a lot more substantive) fb on lists than LJ. - karieflybabe, 2008-04-21 11:14 am UTC (Expand)

Re: I suspect overall there was a lot more (and a lot more substantive) fb on lists than LJ. - feklar, 2008-04-21 03:00 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: I suspect overall there was a lot more (and a lot more substantive) fb on lists than LJ. - fluterbev, 2008-04-23 09:33 am UTC (Expand)

roslynsmuse 2008-04-20 07:17 pm UTC (link)

Let’s look at some of the characteristics of readers and authors here. For instance, someone who is a lover of books may have written to their favorite author about that love affair - say, James Michener. Okay, basically only SPN fans are writing to him currently, now that he is dead, but let’s say while he was still alive. Who are fan fic readers? Likely, just regular folks doing a ‘drive by’ in the netherworld of fan fiction. If it feels like a ‘guilty pleasure’ for them, how would they leave concrit where it would be read by others making these underground forays? Like their co-workers. And to whom would they be writing? We don’t use our real names. They would likely feel the need to get some kind of pseudonym in order to comment and that effort may not be one they wish to undertake. It is still an underground effort so there are no rules about ‘payment’. As for love of the characters, authors also have their personal attachments away from canon. I have found nothing but interesting and talented individuals here but was warned about LJ - “Oh, don’t bother unless you decide to become a ‘slasher’.” I don’t write it but admire some of the truly fine slash writers in the community. Yet, if we are to be realistic, the pre-eminence of slash increases, rather than decreases, the likelihood of Ms. Emily Post, average reader, from adopting a new name and commenting. Just not in their world. So, content ye with stats for now and learning from one another’s comments, positive or negative. Positive comments for fantastic series can’t necessarily prolong it. When it is over, it is over (Dasha, could you please write more in the Dorset County series?). Negative feedback may be more educational for a writer who is overlooking issues in relationships or themes that will spur creativity after the first blush of dismay is gone. Feedback is independent of authors so analyzing it is to analyze ourselves. Perhaps when we all use our own names openly, we will see an entirely different trend… Roslyn ::Er, Dasha, I wasn’t exactly kidding…:: (Reply to this) (Thread)

	roslynsmuse 2008-04-20 07:20 pm UTC (link)
	Oops, dyslexia, thy name is Roslyn. I meant that slash decreases the likilihood of the average reader taking the trouble to comment. ::searching for the edit function:: (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - karieflybabe, 2008-04-20 07:21 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - nimbrethil, 2008-04-20 07:58 pm UTC (Expand)

murinae 2008-04-20 10:09 pm UTC (link)

Hi Fluterbev, Um, feeling shy here. It's been years since we "talked". I dunno if I'm supposed to join in the conversation or not, but I thought your post was very well written, and meta about writing has always interested me. And coming from different fandom experience, I was just fascinated by the differences. I don't know much about the Sentinel fandom at all. I belong to Sentinel Thursday on Livejournal, and I will check the Library as well as 852 Prospect for stories. I haven't for a long while though; life is so busy that I feel like it's an mutant octopus with eighteen arms. I'm not on any of the lists -- but to be honest, for a quiet fan like me, I have to say it's hard to get into the fandom cause we don't know where these lists are, and how to join, and I always felt nervous in a place full of established writers. My sole endeavor in the Sentinel fandom are two drabbles I wrote for Sentinel Thursday, and a few others I've noodled about in my journal... about five in all. I'm a little lost in how to find another place other than my Lj which will give me the same level of control -- since while I don't mind criticism nor flames I'm very embarrassed when mistakes are found and I can't immediately go and correct them. So, in short -- no namenobody here. I think whether or not a fandom has an LJ presence or how fandom views LJ really is based on the fandom itself, and when it first started. Sentinel is a relatively old fandom, and I'm not surprised it's stayed really true to its old ways. I'm really surprised that LJ is seen by some fandoms as a one line ego pat for writers; my reviewers -- when I do get feedback -- show no qualms about writing me paragraphs. I think it's because for my main fandom, we're very small, and the LJ setting promotes a "getting to know the writer as a person as well as for the writing" sort of atmosphere and people feel comfortable telling me what worked, what doesn't, and what really really went south and into the toilet and out again. On the down side, I think LJ is somewhat lonely sometimes -- we're all separated out in our journals. It's hard to find fic sometimes. As an outsider to the Sentinel fandom, the debate on why an author is writing, what is expected of a reader, why there's so much rancor ... it's really fascinating, but it's also hard to understand the fandom dynamics. I feel like I'm missing pieces. For example, I know in my fandom, there's also a third group at play: the reccers (the ones who write reports on fics? We call them reccers, but maybe recommenders, reviewers?) I think those change dynamics of the fandom as well; whether or not your writing is reviewed by a reviewer sometimes changes the feedback. I'm not an especially well reviewed writer, but I do know the thrill of having a big name reccer say something about my writing. Especially those who have really exclusive tastes. I wonder if that also plays a role in reviewing in the fandoms you're talking about. Do people review less when they see you've been recommended by such-and-such? Does it garner you more readers? Or does it just foster more accusations of favoritism? I think that many of your points are universal across fandoms, no matter where they're situated, LJ or otherwise. I can't lie; I love positive feedback, and there are days when a story doesn't even get one review which make me, as your first point states, wonder whether or not my writing is any good. But what it essentially comes down to, for myself, is even when I don't get any feedback, positive, negative, or otherwise -- do the stories still come? Yes. The second question, for me, is "do I care what fandom thinks about my stories, since I write them anyway?" Yes. I think there's this need in me to be popular and be liked and read. I'm too human. But I also realize I cannot make readers respond. I can't change what people want of me -- and I can't write what I can't find inspiration in, no matter how popular the story type is in the fandom. And the damn stories still come anyway. So when does the actual acts of writing and reading become a fandom with acceptable customs and behaviors outside of just writing and reading? That's what's really intriguing me. -muri (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

	murinae 2008-04-20 10:11 pm UTC (link)
	Oh great googly moogly, I'm sorry about the whole long post. I just keep on rambling on, but um, you're a really fascinating person, and I was really into the topic? But um. I apologize! Heh, this is probably why I should just hunker down in my main fandom and not go out more. XD -muri (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - karieflybabe, 2008-04-20 10:28 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - feklar, 2008-04-20 11:20 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - thelana, 2008-04-21 08:57 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - feklar, 2008-04-21 03:23 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - xie_xie_xie, 2008-04-22 03:39 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - fluterbev, 2008-04-21 11:20 am UTC (Expand)

This one: alyburns 2008-04-20 10:49 pm UTC (link)

Are disdainful about solely-positive one-line feedback (such as that seen on LJ), and tend to dismiss it as personal affirmation from the author’s friends (or even alleged sockpuppets) and therefore lacking in perceived worth.... Sometimes it seems to me that the people that say the above aren't the readers (Definition: people who are 'readers' only) but rather from writers - if that makes sense? In fact, I've often wondered if really, this whole issue isn't a reader issue at all? Isn't important to them? I mean, like 90% of all readers (Same definition as above) are very quiet, send their loc's quietly, and are quiet on any lists, etc. they're on. We wrtiers, otoh, get quite vocal about feedback. We tend to be the ones who delve into it (and by *writers*, I mean those who are both voracious readers of others as well as voracious writers). Am I crazy? ...er, don't answer that. (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

Re: This one: feklar 2008-04-20 11:30 pm UTC (link)

I am a reader-only. I think you are right in some respects. I know I always perceived fb debates as something like the semi-annual NPR/PBC donations drive, a guilt drive if you will. It was a time to duck and cover unless I was feeling feisty. I was prompted to respond to this--found via friends list link--in part b/c I miss list fandom and the meta-discussion it abounded with. Your distinction between writers and readers is interesting to me, bcause part of my dislike of LJ (detailed in my comments above), is that I just no longer feel that there is a true fannish community for me as a non-writer to participate in. So some of the disdain stems from the fact that the fandom focus on writing (which lead to personal e-lists, then personal LJs) has in my experience destroyed fandom. And yes, the author lists/ljs read entirely as ego driven to me, which leads to more disdain (yes, yes, your list, your fic, no sharing of the limelight...). I was into fandom for more than just fic and fb, but I feel like that's all that's left. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: This one: - starwatcher307, 2008-04-21 01:23 am UTC (Expand)

Re: This one: - karieflybabe, 2008-04-21 01:38 am UTC (Expand)

Re: This one: - starwatcher307, 2008-04-21 02:28 am UTC (Expand)

Re: This one: - feklar, 2008-04-21 02:29 am UTC (Expand)

Re: This one: - feklar, 2008-04-21 02:24 am UTC (Expand)

Re: This one: - starwatcher307, 2008-04-21 02:48 am UTC (Expand)

Re: Again, I can only really talk from my own experience, but - gillyp, 2008-04-21 09:35 am UTC (Expand)

Re: Again, I can only really talk from my own experience, but - fluterbev, 2008-04-23 09:47 am UTC (Expand)

Re: This one: - feklar, 2008-04-21 03:29 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: This one: - alyburns, 2008-04-21 06:18 am UTC (Expand)

Re: This one: - feklar, 2008-04-21 02:50 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: This one: - mab_browne, 2008-04-21 05:06 am UTC (Expand)

Re: This one: - alyburns, 2008-04-21 06:00 am UTC (Expand)

Re: This one: - feklar, 2008-04-21 03:32 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: This one: - mab_browne, 2008-04-21 08:40 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: This one: - fluterbev, 2008-04-23 09:43 am UTC (Expand)

laurie_ky 2008-04-20 11:49 pm UTC (link)

Well, this was all very interesting to read. My personal experience is that I read quietly for years and didn't send feedback, not because I didn't enjoy the stories, but because I was more protective of my email address. I'm the first to admit I'm not very computer savvy, but I was worried about being spammed a lot or getting viruses. I'm still mostly in the dark about lists,I don't really know how they work. I don't particularly like reading stories in the email format;when I post at 852, I'm just sending the link to the story out in email. I followed links to lj from 852 and I found it fascinating. Before I decided to get my own lj, I participated in commenting. I have to go now, My husband is shutting off the electric. Laurie. (Reply to this) (Thread)

laurie_ky 2008-04-21 02:42 am UTC (link)

I'm bacckkk! I like the lj commenting because it is easy to do,plus out there for others to read also. Like I said earlier, I don't know how the lists work, so I don't know if you can read everybody's comments. I like getting feedback. I don't consider it payment though, but a kind of mirror where you see how what you created is perceived by other people. And I've found it very helpful with the WIP stories. On the other side of the fence, as a commenter,sometimes the mood I'm in,how tired I am, will influence how much I comment. Sometimes I've done reactions feedback, which is fun to do, but it is time consuming, so I don't always do it. And there are people's stories I want to read, but haven't yet. I do know that if I hadn't participated in commenting in lit_gal's, janedavitt's,t_verano,and fluterbev's journal's I wouldn't have started thinking that writing was maybe something I could do to. It was like taking a creative writing class. Anyway, as a writer, I try not to attach too much emotion if I don't get feedback, because I remember all the times I read stories I loved and didn't send it. There was a time after I started writing that I figured people giving me feedback were just being kind, but I talked it out with my beta, t_verano and used my angsty mood to start "A Fair Distance". I want to do a good job as a writer, and if people tell me why they liked the story, or something that confuses them, then that helps me. I wouldn't choose to make statements about not adding to stories unless the writer receives feedback, but I'm thinking those folks may be short on time and have to prioritize, and feedback is how they know somebody out there is invested in reading their story, so they'll allocate their time and resources towards that story. Laurie Edited at 2008-04-21 02:44 am UTC (Reply to this) (Parent)

snycock 2008-04-21 01:46 am UTC (link)

other writers have many and varied motivations, up to and including *gasp* enjoying getting feedback. And getting feedback, it has to be said, can be a very enjoyable experience, so why should writers feel sleazy about accepting it? Yes! Thank you for saying this, seriously, because every time this argument comes up on the lists I start to feel guilty about enjoying getting feedback. I think of feedback not so much as currency, in the sense of something that is given for services rendered, but as the energy that drives a community. I see the give and take of posting and getting feedback and giving feedback, especially in the sense of comments on WIPs that may help an author to refine her ideas or rework parts of her plot or characterization that aren't clear, as part of what we all are in fandom for. Essentially, we all love Jim and Blair, and we want to share our thoughts and our ideas about them with others, not in a self-serving "give me squee" kind of way, but as a way of sharing that joy and happiness with others, and also being enriched by it. And in that model, those writers who do say "give me feedback or I'm not writing/posting" are not helping the energy flow, but choking it off... (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

starwatcher307 2008-04-21 02:16 am UTC (link)

. every time this argument comes up on the lists I start to feel guilty about enjoying getting feedback. Yeah. But as I said to princessofg in comments on my post, "We are taught to seek praise, from the time we're in Kindergarten, and get a star and a smiley-face on our coloring sheet. How can we go against such deeply-ingrained lessons? (Well, we could, if it was important enough, but [liking feedback] doesn't fall in that category.) So, basically, we're taught to like praise, and then told that we shouldn't like praise. It's insane. We all need to get comfortable with the fact that we like feedback, stand up and say, "So what? It's natural and normal, NOT a moral defect!" Essentially, we all love Jim and Blair, and we want to share our thoughts and our ideas about them with others, not in a self-serving "give me squee" kind of way, but as a way of sharing that joy and happiness with others, and also being enriched by it. And in that model, those writers who do say "give me feedback or I'm not writing/posting" are not helping the energy flow, but choking it off... Word! . (Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - fluterbev, 2008-04-23 09:58 am UTC (Expand)

roslynsmuse 2008-04-21 02:11 am UTC (link)

I think that readers can participate by recognizing when writers are becoming repetitive or simply rehashing old aspects of canon without creatively adding to them. Why not leave FB about future fics - after all, if you can't write 'em, why not ask for what you would like to see and have someone take it up! Nothing says it has to be only writers who revive a flagging (or lulling) fandom. Comments don't have to be payback but they can be an investment. Roslyn (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

why not ask for what you would like to see and have someone take it up! gillyp 2008-04-21 09:56 am UTC (link)

Because it's extremely hard to give and receive criticism, no matter how softly we word it? I've always said, and still do, that I love concrit; sometimes I agree with what the feedbacker is saying but other times I don't, either way, I always respond. If I'm disagreeing, I take the time to explain as fully as I can why I wrote what I did the way I did and don't agree with their comment. I actually enjoy having these discussions - sometimes I can have my mind changed by an intelligent exchange, sometimes you do just have to agree to disagree. Having just been snarked on the lists for having responded to one person's feedback n such a way that I - apparently - drove the fb'er to never send fb to another writer ever again, this is something that's kind-of on my mind right now. (o: Having re-read her original email and my response, I honestly can't see how I could have been gentler without saying I agreed with what she was saying (which I didn't). We're all terribly invested in our opinions, either as writers or readers. I still say I like concrit, but no matter how carefully worded (or packed with smileys), is like walking on eggshells, on both sides of the exchange - even more so when you're dealing with friends in open discussion on LJ - which is why so few people even attempt it. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: why not ask for what you would like to see and have someone take it up! - fluterbev, 2008-04-21 10:51 am UTC (Expand)

Re: why not ask for what you would like to see and have someone take it up! - gillyp, 2008-04-21 11:19 am UTC (Expand)

Re: why not ask for what you would like to see and have someone take it up! - karieflybabe, 2008-04-21 11:22 am UTC (Expand)

Re: why not ask for what you would like to see and have someone take it up! - roslynsmuse, 2008-04-21 11:24 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - snycock, 2008-04-21 05:03 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - roslynsmuse, 2008-04-21 07:37 pm UTC (Expand)

knitty_woman 2008-04-21 03:08 am UTC (link)

As a non-writer who is relatively new to fanfic, I have a slightly different perspective from many of you. I got an LJ account specifically so I could attach an identity (of sorts) to comments I'd previously been posting anonymously. I'm interested in fanfic, not other areas of fandom, so the lack of discussion/other lists generally doesn't bother me. I'm also a recreational reader (meaning, I don't want to have to think really hard about what I'm reading), so unless I spend a lot of time absorbing a fic, I don't feel comfortable giving concrit, apart from the occasional edit or query of clarification. I generally like to let folks know if I'm enjoying what I'm reading, but I try not to say anything negative. After all, it's really bad form to say, "My eight year old niece could have written this better than you did." If I think the story is well plotted and written, although not my cup of tea, I might acknowledge that; if I enjoy the story, even if it's poorly written, I might acknowledge the former and skip the latter; if I think the story is crap, I'll say nothing, because fanfic writers are doing this for fun too, and getting negative comments has got to take some, if not all, of the fun out of it. One thing I've noticed about feedback, however, is that it goes both ways. I was delighted when I quite unexpectedly received replies from authors (and other readers) after leaving feedback. Rightly or wrongly, I've now come to anticipate some kind of acknowledgment after I've left feedback. I totally get the idea that feedback is a gift that's offered up without expectation of recompense; but in reality, it's become the only way I've gotten to "know" anybody on LJ. A brief "Thanks for reading!" lets me know that somebody out there noticed me; it's a virtual wave and makes things more friendly. (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

tesserae_ 2008-04-21 04:15 am UTC (link)

it's become the only way I've gotten to "know" anybody on LJ Oh, very much so - I've friended any number of people after interesting discussions that started with fb, and been friended for the same reason. It's just another oppotunity to get to know floks, you know? And as an (occasional) writer, I would add that fb=love! Even someone writing to say "I liked this" & nothing more totally makes my day. (Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - mostcrazylady, 2008-04-21 05:43 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - ithildyn, 2008-04-21 08:01 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - karieflybabe, 2008-04-21 08:09 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - laura_holt_pi, 2008-04-21 08:09 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - fluterbev, 2008-04-23 10:03 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - starwatcher307, 2008-04-23 04:16 pm UTC (Expand)

gemmi999 2008-04-21 04:25 am UTC (link)

I've written stories for as long as I can remember. I've posted in different fandoms, and I don't generally get a lot of FB. Which I'm okay with, because for the most part I use my stories as a method of working out whatever issue I'm trying to understand at that time. I'm currently writing stories with Transgender themes because I'm trying to understand how exactly trans-issues fit into the world at large. I know personally friends who have transitioned, I know people within the GLBT community that don't accept Trans folks, I've seen the whole spectrum. I know that over 50 Transfolks have been murdered since 1995 because of their gender identity. Writing helps me figure out how everything works in the world. It lets me figure out my own head (because most of my writing is stream-of-consciousness and I just write what spills out of my brain). I'm confused when I see people demand feedback or they'll stop posting. When I no longer feel anything for the characters, I stop posting. I did write one series b/c I got such an overwhelming amount of FB I felt I had to. I don't like feeling obligated, I stopped writing it after awhile and only post when I feel the story has something else for me to say to it. In that sense, I don't want to be a person that gets 4 or 5 pages of comments on a story. Sure it would be cool and all, but I'd feel obligated to do more with the 'verse, or something, and it wouldn't be good. So, yeah. I write to figure things out for myself. I post in case other people are debating the same thing. Even with PWP--right now I'm writing a lot of bdsm fic because I'm debating if I want to become involved with that world in RL. I'm working on a story that is about a bad experience within BDSM. It helps me process things. Thanks for listening to me ramble. (Reply to this) (Thread)

fluterbev 2008-04-21 12:59 pm UTC (link)

I'm confused when I see people demand feedback or they'll stop posting. When I no longer feel anything for the characters, I stop posting. I found myself nodding at this, with one slight proviso: I can understand not *posting* if there appears to be no one reading (ie no feedback, no comments, few hits). I can't understand ceasing to *write* because no one is reading/sending feedback, because my primary motive has always been love of playing with the characters first and foremost. Then again, I'm not everyone, and some people cite feedback as a primary motivator. I still have a hard time believing it can be anyone's *sole* motivator, though - there has to be love of the characters, love of writing etc at work too, doesn't there? Or maybe not. People are strange! LOL I get your point about a sense of obligation being demotivating. I'm at the end now of writing a huge WIP, and I've found that this time (just like the other times I've been at this stage of a WIP), that the knowledge that people are waiting for the final part can be a bit daunting, and sometimes makes me feel less able to actually engage with it. I'm not sure why, really - partially fear of letting go of it, partially worry that it will be a disappointment. I'm trying to get myself over it as we speak :-) I also get what you're saying about using fic as a vehicle to explore issues in your RL/feelings etc. I do that too - always have. I think I'd go nuts without that outlet, sometimes. Edited at 2008-04-21 01:27 pm UTC (Reply to this) (Parent)

swanpride 2008-04-21 08:01 am UTC (link)

1. Feedback: Yes, as a reader, I don't gave always feedback. But my reasons are very different from those you mentioned. In the Sentinel-Fandome the main reason is that most of the ffs are on sites without a review function. I don't like to send reviews with e-mail because I don't like to spread my mail adress all over the internet. I have done it occasionally but only when the stories were very, very good or there was something in them what really bugged me. If I send feedback that real feedback. Sometimes it is only a sentences, but I allways write with part I especially liked. Most of the time my feedback is really long and elaborate. And frankly: When I write such a long review and ask a question at the end, I am very disappointed when I never get an answer. Sometimes I realize that the author don't like critic...well, If he doesn't like critic, he doesn't get another review from me. 2/3) As a writer, I am writing first an foremost for myself...but I am happy about reviews. I am even happier about critical reviews, because those a really helpful. As a reader I mostly don't care for drabbles because honestly, there are many writers out there who write them but only few who are good in it. Mostly those who write both, drabbles AND longer short stories. But everyone is inclined to write (and read) whatever he fancies, regardless of the motives. 4/5) I don't care about the number of reviews a writer gets or frem whom he gets it. Either I like the story or I don't. In the Harry Potter Fandome the "squeel"-fraction is esspecially big, and frankly, I don't have a good opinion of them. Mostly because of a german writer, who beginns all of her fics with "Ich gehe nicht nach dem Buch, wenns euch nicht passt, dann lest es nicht" (I don't care for canon, so if you don't like it, don't read my ff). She writes what I call "tarned original storys". The characters are different, the setting is different, even the NAMES are different...it is slash from the ugliest kind with rape victims (mainly Harry) who are therapied by sleeping with someone (mainly Voldemort) and other nonsense. I noticed that the stories I like tend to draw a different kind of reader who doesn't tend to use "sqeeel"-comments. Therefore I think that the is a relation between the quality of the FF and the quality of the comments. mmmm....you never mentioned the REAL BIG discussion in fandome: Has a WIP-writer a comitment to his readers? (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

thelana 2008-04-21 10:03 am UTC (link)

Therefore I think that the is a relation between the quality of the FF and the quality of the comments. That's a great point. I probably wouldn't think too highly of an author who only gets "Lol, awsum, rite more!" comments. Yet sometimes people write stories where the feedback and the feedback discussions are interesting in their own right. Kinda like the bonus material on a DVD: mmmm....you never mentioned the REAL BIG discussion in fandome: Has a WIP-writer a comitment to his readers? I tend to think no. Of course it's always painful for the reader, but it's still something the author does for free, so I don't think that people have a right to demand anything of them. They can politely express their interest should the author ever feel like continuing, but if it doesn't work then it doesn't work. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - swanpride, 2008-04-21 11:56 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - fluterbev, 2008-04-21 12:12 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - swanpride, 2008-04-21 12:27 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - fluterbev, 2008-04-21 12:42 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - swanpride, 2008-04-21 12:52 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - thelana, 2008-04-21 12:19 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - thelana, 2008-04-21 12:22 pm UTC (Expand)

Has a WIP-writer a comitment to his readers? - gillyp, 2008-04-21 10:12 am UTC (Expand)

Re: Has a WIP-writer a comitment to his readers? - swanpride, 2008-04-21 11:59 am UTC (Expand)

Re: Has a WIP-writer a comitment to his readers? - neverenoughjam, 2008-04-24 12:30 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - karieflybabe, 2008-04-21 11:31 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - swanpride, 2008-04-21 12:06 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - karieflybabe, 2008-04-21 12:42 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - fluterbev, 2008-04-21 12:27 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - swanpride, 2008-04-21 12:36 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - karieflybabe, 2008-04-21 12:45 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - swanpride, 2008-04-21 12:56 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - karieflybabe, 2008-04-21 01:22 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - swanpride, 2008-04-23 07:30 pm UTC (Expand)

thelana 2008-04-21 09:54 am UTC (link)

As somebody who can't write herself, but has a soft spot for rare pairings and rare fandoms I have spent a lot of time what a reader can do to encourage more fic. My experience has been mostly medium to tiny fandoms and I have yet to find the writer who didn't like one line comments. Sure, some might value long comments over short, but everybody I have met so far values short over no comment at all. Maybe it's different in huge fandoms where the author just stops caring after that 60th or so comment. But yes, as a reader I do feel that comments can matter. It's true that a comments won't make a writer write something if they aren't interested. But it might be the tipping point if they just are sorta interested, but not deeply so. Or even if you don't inspire the writer you give the feedback too, maybe somebody else might swing by and see your comment and get inspired. Or they might see that a story has provoked so many comments or such great in depth comments that maybe they are inspired to finally jot down that fic that they were thinking about anyway. To me writing a comment, particularly an in depth one is like placing a bit on a property. It's me saying "This is how much this type of story is worth to me." I alone can't dicate the pice of a thing and make it popular all by myself. But I can try to do my tiny share. I like to think that maybe feedback can make the difference between "Shall I finish this story today, since I know so and so many people are looking forward to it or shall I go for a walk?" Of course different people value feedback differently or value walks differently or it depends on their mood. So there are a gazillion things that might influence an author. Feedback is just a tiny part of it, but maybe occasionally there might be situations where it can tip the situation in one direction or the other. Ideally feedback can bring people together. Ideally it can produce what I call the mindmeld where you love what the author loves (usually their fic). It can be like an adrenaline rush. Again, particularly in a small fandom maybe. I do think that livejournal has changed how feedback happens. When I started in fandom it was mostly personal websites, archives and lists. Back then I had trouble leaving feedback because I plain out felt I didn't know how. I saw a story I loved, I saw the email link at the bottom, but it still felt incredibly out of place to contact somebody I didn't know. And that aside from not knowing what to write and being scared shitless of them getting my email address. (Reply to this) (Thread)

thelana 2008-04-21 09:55 am UTC (link)

I left exactly two feedbacks and both, looking back, incredibly out of place. The first one was basically "Hi, my name is..." with half my bio. The other one was "Hi, I really loved your story. I also loved story X, Y, and Z. Have you read them too.". In short I was clueless. While in livejournal you can look at other people's feedback and sort of gleam to social rules for leaving feedback. Lists, I was subscribed to some, but I left maybe two replies there alltogether. I thought they were incredibly intimidating. Hard to follow. Everybody seemed to know each other already and carry grudges. People were constantly quoting the entire stories. You couldn't decide whether you cared about the latest 100 email OT discussion about apples vs. cucumbers. And the thought of writing an entry and being a potential target of several 100 people who might jump on you was very intimidating. I'm surprised to read that lists apparently produced more fic than livejournal. I always assumed that it would be the other way around simply because *I* gave less feedback back then than I do now. (now meta discussion is a different thing. I agree that that is missing on lj) What is also interesting to me that back when I got most of my stories from personal websites (because quite frankly I couldn't read stories in list formatting) I had no way of telling whether a story was popular or not. I had no way of telling if I was the second person reading it or that 18328th. That's different on LJ. You can tell immediately what things and what stories are tendencially more popular than others. I wonder if this publicness of success has also influenced how and what people write (the infamous "you can get more comments with a drabble than with an epic"). Maybe the lack of meta feeds into that. A drabble or short PWP is a quick read and quick feedback to leave. The advantage of a long fic might be that it's possible for people to meta on it, while a short fic doesn't give you as much in things to analyze or meta about. Yet if meta discussion doesn't really exist as much on LJ then there are no advantages to writing longfic over writing shortfic other than personal satisfaction. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - roslynsmuse, 2008-04-21 12:02 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - thelana, 2008-04-21 12:16 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - roslynsmuse, 2008-04-21 07:50 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - sophinisba, 2008-04-21 10:30 pm UTC (Expand)

earth2skye 2008-04-21 12:52 pm UTC (link)

In my opinion, and what I've been reading in the comments on this post, the problem is mostly generalization. All of the character traits in readers and writers that you have described above exist. The question is whether one generalizes on the basis of having met/seen this or that in some forums or maybe based on one's own opinion. And here's my take on it: What it comes down to most of the time is that (personal) "expectations" are perceived and maybe even actually grow into feelings of entitlement. Personally, I believe that, in any situation in life, it's a lot easier to be happy if you don't "expect" anything, if what you do is enough for you in itself already, meaning you decide for yourself whether or not you do something. Whenever receiving something (in return) is an "option", then it's a bonus if you do receive it. As a writer that breaks down to the fact that the writing itself should be what motivates you. Maybe, when you become part of a community of close friends/acquaintances who share your interest and motivate you with their comments (while you write, most likely) that's also part of the deal, but feedback of the anonymous kind...it's nice to get, but it's one of those "optional things". Whether or not you do get it can't/shouldn't be what you write for, and you shouldn't let it dictate if you continue to write or post. Whether or not the writing or posting is worth it to you, you make that decision *before* you write/post. So if you don't get any feed back for your posted story, the reasons to write and post the next one don't change (ideally, anyway). But this kind of attitude also has a side for the reader, who should not/cannot "expect" that stories of a certain kind/quality/length whatnot are written or even that WIPs are finished, whether or not they give feedback. As for my opinion on feedback itself, I don't equate it with payment, because it's got very little, if anything, to do with "producing" the goods (i.e. writing/posting the story). IMHO it's simply a question of manners, like saying thanks or greeting people you know in the street. If you were given something you liked, you thank the person who gave it to you. And if you're a really nice person and know what kind of fb the author likes, you do it in the way the author likes best (i.e. of the "thanks, I loved it" variety or broken down into things that you liked specifically or -- if you can -- as a form of actual concrit. But whatever you do, you give it freely, like the story was given to you freely. (Reply to this)

laura_holt_pi 2008-04-21 08:00 pm UTC (link)

It's not currency, at least, not to me. I don't consider feedback any form of reward for my work. I, like most writers I know, judge my worth almost entirely by how good my writing is and, like most writers I know, tend to distrust my own opinion on that. To me, feedback is someone saying either, "Why are you trying to be what you're not?" or "Yes, that's acceptable, you have ceased to be merely a waste of oxygen." No feedback always makes me think everyone hated it, because I am completely unable to be rational when something so important to me is at stake. In my head, I know there are lots of reasons why people don't say anything, but writers don't live in their heads, but in that deep well of insecurity where "nobody said anything" means, "nobody liked any of it." When I do get feedback, I feel I'm at least being acknowledged as some kind of writer (bad feedback means I'm a bad writer, but it's still better than none). When I get good feedback, it's like being carried on the shoulders of my fans through a cheering crowd, even if it only says, "Not bad." When someone tells me, as a reader did recently, that I've inspired them to try to write something, I'm in paradise. I don't need currency, cash or in kind. All I have ever needed or ever will need is to be occasionally told, "You can write." because all the writers I know agree that it never seems true until someone else says it. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	karieflybabe 2008-04-21 08:12 pm UTC (link)
	Perfectly said, hit every chord in me. Thank you. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Here via Metafandom seasidh 2008-04-21 08:12 pm UTC (link)

This was indeed an interesting read. I like that issues like these are addressed lately, because you find it in about every fandom. I'm both, a reader and a writer. Mostly a writer because, I admit, I am picky about what I read or whose stories I read, which limits my choices. I've seen countless posts where people say things like "I'll keep posting If I get (optionally: positive) feedback or ask if people would be interested in reading more. Personally, I don't get it. While I post my writings in my personal place and people can read it, I don't write for the "audience", I write for myself. I like expressing myself through writing. I don't get a lot of feedback (anymore, used to be different), but I am aware that most of my readers are lurkers. And I'm not writing for feedback. I do it for myself because I love doing it. I enjoy getting feedback, of course. Some leave the obligatory "Nice story, loved it!", some really take their time to give (even con-crit) elaborative feedback. I like the letter best because I learn from the things people point out or question, for the future. On the other hand, me as a reader - I've mostly refrained from giving a lot of feedback, even con-crit one. I've come across many different reactions: a) The author of a story felt so demotivated about con-crit feedback (or, most of the time, the mere suggestion that a beta might help), that they took their stories down immediately and never showed up again. b) The author took notice, but in a very 'Yeah, nice, but I don't care' way, which makes me wonder (especially when they state all kinds of feedback are welcome) c) The author actually liked having things pointed out or questioned, because it showed I, as a reader, paid attention and am interested and they were happy to elaborate/explain. Now, when it comes to me giving feedback, I do it on maybe a handful of stories I read every month, if that. Mostly because, while a story was a good time filler, I don't really have much to say to it, or I'm not sure whether I liked it or not. So, as some people say, "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all" and most of the time, I stick to that policy. That and the reactions a) and b), previously mentioned, sometimes makes it hard to fulfill an author's request for feedback. I'm not even sure all this made sense, lol. (Reply to this)

	iulia_linnea 2008-04-21 08:23 pm UTC (link)
	*makes free to issue a one-liner* Excellent points, all! (Reply to this) (Thread)

	karieflybabe 2008-04-21 08:30 pm UTC (link)
	Mwahahahahahahaha!!!!!! Love it. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - iulia_linnea, 2008-04-21 08:31 pm UTC (Expand)

yourlibrarian 2008-04-21 09:22 pm UTC (link)

Many of the reasons given for not sending feedback are unrelated to whether the story in question was regarded as a worthwhile or enjoyable read. One thing discussed in light of the many quiet communities on IJ is also that lot of people don't feel like being the first ones to comment on a fic that has otherwise received no response. Which, again, is a social thing unrelated to the story. I don't write fic but do occasionally post meta, and I have to say the biggest reason I can find for a lack of comments is simply that not many people have seen the post. Because the number of people who click, then actually read, the actually comment are quite few. And one other thing I'd add to your list is that many authors feel embarassed about pimping their own work, to the point where some won't even post them to communities for fear of looking as if they want readers! I quite liked your opening table. It's amazing how many fandoms that applies to. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	karieflybabe 2008-04-21 09:28 pm UTC (link)
	Exactly why I am now pimping my fic in three communities all relating to my fandom, and putting some of my fic in an archive that announces to one of the older lists. I am nervous about posting and announcing fic, but I am quickly coming to learn it is necessary in order to get attention. Not every fic can get rec'ed. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - yourlibrarian, 2008-04-21 09:36 pm UTC (Expand)

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